I told you you'd have my support, and that you do. I think everything you've said was totally correct, and perhaps even a bit more. Harsh? Yes. But necessary. I think the only thing wrong with it is that you weren't harsh enough toward those people whom you mention here:

> To anybody who is reading this and nodding in agreement, you can shut up too. Nobody, including me, who has been whining about the forum in private chatrooms for the last six months but not actually posting anything *good* has any right to complain. Can everybody who's capable of it please get off their butts and start posting some good stuff before we all go completely insane?

... Because it is totally our collective fault that this whole forum has gone to hell. It's not like there was any spontaneous eruption that killed it off. No, we watched it degrade we sat here; we watched as the quality of this forum dipped lower and lower, and we didn't do anything about it. In fact, what did we do? Most of us - myself included, and numerous others - simply ignored the forum more and more, posted less, read less, cared less. And I know, for my part, it wasn't that I couldn't come up with anything interesting to say so much as I didn't want to bother trying to compete with all the stupidity, and that I didn't figure that most of the people about whom I actually *cared* would even likely spot it amidst same. All of us whiners have to stop whining and start posting intelligent conversation if we want there to *be* intelligent conversation. Just earlier tonight, several of us were talking about black holes in chat. That would have made an excellent forum topic. So there are still intelligent things being thought about around here - we just have to start talking.

Which isn't to say, of course, that there's no room for silliness. Silliness is fine - if it's intelligent silliness. Posts that read like "omg i hadf RINKDREAM the other night and dave was there and he said 'one time i 8 a bug' and tehn his car came by" can be dispensed with. Don't just talk, *say something.* If you don't have anything to say, *don't say anything.* It's as simple as that.

Also, people need to start reading the entireties of threads they're about to post to before they post to them. We don't need eighteen replies to any given post that all say the same thing. Read the *whole thread,* and then, if you still have something to say that nobody's said already, say it. Or if you have a new angle, say it. But if you don't have one single thing to say about something that somebody else hasn't already said, just don't respond. You're not being graded on quantity of participation here (note to anyone who has been here for three years: I'm a fine one to talk ;-}). Similarly, don't post just to say "I agree" or "I disagree." That's the kind of empty, pointless chaff that this forum is getting clogged with.

Oh, and Hitchhiker's Guide, Princess Bride, Rocky Horror, and Monty Python references have been done to death.

Like you say, it sounds like we're very much opposed to newbies. I, in particular, draw a whole lot of flak for being "anti-newbie." That isn't the case. I am, in fact, quite in favour of new people joining us, if they can hold up our standards of quality. If they can't, then, yeah. I'll pass on them. I am in no position, of course, to be telling anybody he can and can't be here - that's entirely up to Sam. I just want to make it very clear that there's no aversion from me toward newbies.

> I tried to do that instead of writing this post. But my creativity, originality, sense of humour, personal motivation and damn near my will to live have been sucked away into the giant black hole of suckiness this forum seems to have turned into.

I feel the same way, with the possible exception of the "will to live" part. :-} It's difficult to post something witty, something intelligent, or something thoughtful when you look around and see a whole bunch of meaningless nonsense. When you know that the majority of the responses you *do* get will be empty and stupid.

If this forum has been a black hole lately, it has had its isolated Hawking particles that manage to rise above the murk. We're not beyond hope yet, but we need to turn this around. It's not like Sam can just set the value of forumSucks to 0 and make it better.

> I have been struggling against posting something like this for weeks now. Darien says I am good at veiled insults, but I realise that if insults were Islamic women, this post would not only not be veiled, it would be wearing a sequinned thong bikini and dancing on a table.

Well it's about time someone said it, and I'm ashamed of myself for not doing it personally. Thank you.

- Dar "breaking point" ien