> Apoligies; I never meant to imply that the attitude of uncaring is always based on not knowing the difference between good and evil, and I do realize that there are those who do know the difference quite well but, as you said, choose not to care because they don't want to. However -- I believe that it is possible for anyone to change...and that it is also possible to make *anyone* want to care. Now, what exactly it is that can bring about this change I can't say; I'm sure that it's different for every person. But I am sure that there is this potential for betterment in everyone.

I would agree that there is potential for betterment in everyone; I would also agree that it is possible for anyone to change (but not always probable). I am fascinated with your statement that "it is also possible to make anyone want to care". Anyone? There are people who are willing to risk and endure bodily harm, incarceration, ignominy rather than make themselves (or let someone make them) care. But, okay, in theory, you and I could plausibly find some way to motivate them. So I would concede plausible, but not 100% possible, through our human effort.

Now if you're talking about *God* influencing the possibility of change, then my confidence level goes way up, since He's in the business of changing hearts and has omnipotence and omniscience on His side ;-) He would seem the better bet. However, He did also give us free choice; which brings us back to the point that some people will *still* not make the choice to care. So if God can't "make" someone care who absolutely doesn't want to, I'm somewhat less optimistic that you and I can either. However, I agree that it is always better to fight the good fight and try, because you never know when or who may decide it is time to start caring.
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> >Problem is, we're not "good enough" guys. I agree that *hope* is important for us to keep going, but it must be based on a firm foundation. I don't want to base my hope on a bunch of other people trying to do good in the world, because I know they are just like me. I know that though I'm usually well intentioned, I'm also inconsistent, unwise, ineffective--and so are they. Not a firm foundation. I would rather place my hope in an eternal, omniscient, omnipresent and *powerful* God and in His Christ, who won't neglect doing the right thing just because, for instance, blood sugar is running low, or it was a bad day at work.

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> However, I do believe that we are 'good enough' guys to better ourselves and those around us. Of course, being unperfect ourselves we can not make the world perfect either, but that doesn't mean that we can't make it better then it is already, if only by a little bit.

Agreed, being flawed is not an excuse for doing nothing. But I believe our flaws significantly hamper us from *ultimately* changing the world for better.

> And even though those of us who strive towards perfection are indeed inconsistent, unwise, and ineffective sometimes, we are *usually* well intentioned...and I find that I can relate better to this state of "Not perfect, can't be perfect, but trying anyway" better then I could relate to a state of absolute perfection, which I have not experienced myself....which is why I place my own hope where I do. Though it may not be a perfect foundation, I do feel that it is strong enough for my hope to be justified.

But isn't this settling for second best on the basis of comfort level? No one can understand the perfection of God, but that is not a reason to replace your faith and hope in more comfortably understood human achievement. I don't feel comfortable with/can't relate to the mechanisms of nuclear medicine very well, but I would not reject it in favor of Grandma's chicken soup (which I do understand and relate to) if I were looking for a cancer remedy. The soup would be a misplaced hope.

As an aside, I would add that a faith and hope in God can turn into a motivating factor in itself for people to change the world for better (think Mother Theresa, etc.) It's like getting both the nuclear medicine *and* the chicken soup :)

To me it just boils down to choices. I read somewhere that most daily choices are not made between a good thing and a bad thing; they are made between a good thing and a *better* thing.
Human compassion and caring are good, but God, by definition, would be better, and where I chose to place hope.

> Now, I know that you probably don't agree with this because, well, simply because you're not the same person as me, but now you may be able to see where I'm comming from at least. And if not, well, this is one thread that I'd be happy to continue :-)

Yes, I think I can see where you're coming from, and you're right, my view is a bit different than yours. Happily continue, if you will and wish.

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> -Ka"I always enjoy conversations that make me *think* and give me a chance to see other points of view"z!

koala"me too"mom